Vorphilatelie / pre-philately

    Hello!
    I should greatly appreciate your input on the periodization problem concerning the line between pre-philately and the modern period of stamp usage / a "philatelic" era.
    More precisely: is it possible to say that the period of pre-philately ends at a specific date or year, determined by the introduction of stamps? Or is it reasonable to see a certain period thereafter as a "period of transition" considering many instances wheremail was handled in the "old way"?
    Wishing you all a good night!
    Pixie

    Hello Pixie!

    Every country - or even each state introduced stamps in a different year. In Great Britain the first stamp was introduced in 1840. This was the first stamp worldwide. In the following years more countries introduced stamps to make postal handling easier.

    For example, even in Germany the different states introduced stampls to different years: Baden in 1851, Bayern in 1849, Bergedorf in 1861 and so on.

    But you have to be careful, even after there the introduction of stamps there were personal files which didn't need any stamps. To decide if it was pre-philately or not you have to check the year (on the cancellation or in the content of the letter) and compare it with the year the first stamps were introduced.

    Hope I could help you.

    Denis

    Hello Pixie

    In Germany it is common knowledge, that the prephilatelic times of the old German states ended a day before the first stamps were introduced.

    To give you an example: Bavaria was the first state that introduced stamps in what was later called Germany on the 1st of November 1849. The prephilatelic period for Bavarian collectors therefore ends on October 1849.

    The only thing that changed at that time was the possiblilty to throw franked letters into the postbox at any time, instead of haviing to bring them to the post office and pay for the postage there.

    In Bavaria the stamps were introduced within the regulative period dating from the 1st. of July 1849 until the 30th of June 1850.

    Letters sent to a different country are regarded as prephilatelic when one country used stamps and the other not.

    To give you an example: A letter from Bavaria to Wuerttemberg, dated July 1851, is a prephilatlic letter, as Wuerttemberg had no stamps at that time.

    A letter from Bavaria to Bade at that time is regarded as a philatelic letter, as Bade already used stamps then (since May 1851). It is not important, wheather the sender used stamps or preferred to send the letter unpaid.

    I hope I could help you a bit.

    Kind regard from bayern klassisch

    Hello Pixie

    As the previous authors have stated within a country that subsequently issued stamps, the pre-philatelic period ends the day before the issue of them.

    It becomes a little more confusing (complicated) with mail that travels to another country. The example cited by bayern klassisch is but just one.

    So mail that is going to a country or state that has not issued stamps is still considered pre-philatelic, and vice versa.

    But there exist situations where both countries concerned have issued stamps, but neither recognises the validity of the other. Such is often the case where older agreements favoured one over the other or it was advantageous financially to do so.

    There is also the area to consider with items of mail going abroad, whereby the mail travels to the border paid in stamps, ie Franko (paid) and its onward journey is Porto with the recipient having to pay the outstanding postage that was due. Not truly pre-philatelic and a bit of a grey area, the definition depending largely on which view is held.

    Within the UK mail going abroad was not generally franked with stamps until around 1847. Between 1847 and 1854 three values were introduced to pay overseas postage (viewed from the UK). 1/-, 10d. and 6d. Until fairly recently the only embossed issues from the UK.

    Within the period 1840 to 1860 various postal agreements were amended to facilitate the use of stamps on mail going abroad, until finally international agreement and regulation was laid down with the inception of the U.P.U. and the concordance of the signatories, both initially and those that joined later.

    I'm sorry that it is not as cut and dried as you may have wished, and for postal historians, such as my self and others the area is somewhat akin to a minefield. An area certainly where any prospective author would be unwise to engrave anything in stone.

    kind regards

    Nigel

    Sammeln wie es einem Spaß macht

    Good morning,
    and thank you Denis, Bayern Klassisch and Nigel!
    Yes it seems reasonable to use a specific date, or there would be total confusion.
    Yet there are obviously grey areas, as you have mentioned and that is what made me start thinking - perhaps too much - about it.
    I once read an article making the point that although stamps were introduced, for some period of time the "old ways" (e.g. franco-porto were in use) were still used occasionally, which means that also later objects of that kind could be used as valid examples of pre-phila.
    Your replies and examples have been very helpful.
    I wish you a pleasant sunday!
    :)
    Pixie

    Hi Pixie,

    The safest bet is to say, that "pre philately" ends on the day stamps were introduced. Usually that did not mean that stamps had to be used or that unpaid letters were forbidden. The US stampless cover catalogue for example ends at 1855, when it became obligatory to use stamps.

    I have attached one cover to illustrate the problem... All the involved countries had issued stamps at that time but it was not possible to prepay to the US or to use stamps to prepay up to the US border, only within the GAPU stamps could be used.

    And a warm "thank you!" to Gagrakacka
    Conclusion: it is a bit complicated, and every case is an individual case, and has to be determined accordingly.
    All the best!
    Pixie

    Hello to Sweden

    If you have problems with some old letters, just send us a scan and we´ll try to do our best to find out, if it is a prephilatelic letter or not.

    Kind regards from bayern klassisch

    Hello again,
    and thank you Bayern Klassisch!

    well the discussion among me and my friends started with another object, but this is my own, and may well illustrate the problem;
    (sorry, the two sides on this image were scanned in different scanners and I have not worked on them, but it is the same letter)

    The letter was sent from Lovisa, Finland to Nürnberg in 1859, that is " the stamp period" in Finland. It bears all the signs of a pre-phila of the years immediately before the first finnish issues. And I have always considered it as such.

    Hi Pixie,

    IMHO this is no longer prephilately because both countries had issued stamps at that time. I like to keep it simple: The senders country has issued stamps? No longer prephilately.

    Hello Pixie

    This is a letter from the well-known correspondance to Hopf und Söhne in Nürmberg.

    The dispatcher paid 20 Silverkopecks for the complete transit over Prussia to Bavaria. 10 of them for Finland and 10 of them for Prussia. Bavaria got nothing.
    There were stamps in Finland at that time, but they were hardly used

    If you are interested in Scandinavian letters of the mid 19. century to Bavaria, I can show you a couple of interesting ones from my collections.

    Yours

    bayern klassisch

    Oh yes, please!
    I would very much like to see them.
    Do you have an image gallery, or homepage?

    Hopf & Söhne in Nürnberg - what did they sell?
    I just copied the letter I showed earlier, to show you.
    It is written in swedish, and I wonder if they might have had any person employed who understood swedish or any of the nordic languages.


    Here the translation:

    H.H. Hopf & Sons!
    While I now have the rights as "Kaufmann", I kindly ask you to address directly to me the goods ordered by me in my most recent mail to you.
    Yours sincerely
    C. M. Creutz
    c/o J.G.Söderström

    Alle the best
    Pixie

    Einmal editiert, zuletzt von Pixie (10. Februar 2008 um 19:14)

    Hello Pixie

    Hopf was a big hop dealer, who could understand many languages, because he sold his goods to many countries in europe and abroad.

    When I was in Finland last year, I saw a company there, that was also called Hopf and sold beer there. May be a branch of the Bavarian Hopf company.

    As it is too late now, I will place some scans tomorrow from that correspondence. Hope you can wait until then.

    Yours sincerely

    bayern klassisch

    Hello Pixie

    here some letters for your delight:

    Finland - Russia - Prussia - Bavaria

    Abo 21.10.1859 , Nürnberg 31.10.1859 paid letter, contract Prussia / Russia 13.05.1852.

    No stamp used, but not prephilatelic!

    Sweden - Bavaria

    Helsingborg 25.9.1853, Nürnberg 29.9.1853 all paid but no stamps.
    Contract Prussia - Sweden 1.7.1852. From April - November via Stralsund, where it got the strike "Aus Schweden" (otherwise over Stettin or Swinemünde). Sweden received 5 Sgr. for sending overland and oversea and 3 Sgr. for Prussia. Bavaria got nothing, as usual.
    I show both sides, as the backside is a brilliant example of the early German railways.

    To be continued.

    Sweden - Bavaria unpaid.
    Stockholm 12.8.1851, Ühlfeld 19.8.1851.
    Contract Prussia - Sweden 1.5.1845 (pre - philatelic contract!)

    Sweden inland 4 Sgr. (not written) via Strasund ("Aus Schweden") plus transit Prussia 4 Sgr. together 8 Sgr., which were reduced in Hof (Prussian office) into 28 Kreuzer plus Bavaria inland 6 Kreuzer written in Auslage - Hof therefore 34 Kr. to be paid in Ühlfeld.

    Bavaria got 6 Kr., Prussia got 14 Kr. and Sweden got 14 Kr. as well.

    To be continued.